Review of Ray Jardine's
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Frankly Ray scares me. After reading his book, one will definitely get the feeling that he is a self proclaimed prophet of the PCT, and that if you dont follow him you are "unenlightened". |
The most important thing to keep in mind when quoting from the Jardine book is that Ray is not like the rest of us: he is an execellant athlete, at one time during the mid to late 70's he was, if not the best, then one of the best, rock climbers in the world for pure difficulty, Olympic quality in caliber. |
I generally agree with most of the advice that The PCT Hiker's Handbook gives. I even published an article in UltraRunning Magazine advocating a similar style well before the publication of the Handbook. In the earlier edition of this review I tried very hard to provide a review that showed the Handbook in a good light, while still voicing the considerable objections to its content. After Adventure Lore Publications attemped to censor my article with the threat of a lawsuit, I feel considerably less charitable.
Hiking styles very greatly from trekker to trekker, and each person who completes any long istance hike has successfully developed a style that works for them. Ray Jardine is one of the most experienced long distance hikers in the world, having completed the PCT 3 times, and the Appalachian Trail and the Continental Divide Trail. The PCT Hikers Handbook detailst he methods which work for him. These methods are presented in the book as the best or only ways to hike. They are the best ways for RAY JARDINE and I caution you to
think hard before you adopt any methods that sound objectionable to you. The book is full of great ideas, though, and I strongly recommend that you read it as part of your trip plans. Other through hikers have different opinions:
Sleeping Pad. The author states "During our two hikes of the PCT Jenny and I sleet on a torso length sheet of 3/8 inch foam which grew thinner with the passing of weeks. But I've come to relinquish even this as a generally unnecessary. When ground insulation is required we now sleep on spare clothing."
On my through hike, I slept on wet sand, frozen mud, gravel and all sorts of other nasty stuff. I couldn't always find pine duff. The coldest nights, where I needed all the insulation from the frozen ground I could get- I didn't have any spare clothes to sleep on: I was wearing them all inside my sleeping bag! A thermarest probably weighs too much (though the Thermarest Ultralight is not too bad), but carry a pad of some sort.
Running shoes. I wore running shoes on my hike, but so many people have objected to this piece of advice, I had to mention it. Try hiking with your chosen footwear for a few days before you set out, to make sure you have made the right choice. This is good advice for all your gear.
Caffeine and Alcohol. As with all addicts, Java Junkies object to living without their chosen drug. I cherished coffee when I could get it, but I seldom took the time to make any in the morning. I don't drink alcohol so I wouldn't miss beer anyway. I personally agree with more of the Handbooks advice than I disagree, but use that advice to create your own style of hiking. You will be happier than if you try to adopt Ray Jardine's.
If you have used the advice in this book, I invite your comments on the subject. Send them to brick@ix.netcom.com
Because I don't want to be accused of bias, I have not edited the following posts as much as good form demands. They tend to wander, and you will probably only read all of them if you have a special interest in this subject.
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 18:45:58 -0800
From: ********
Subject: Re: flexibility and AT/PCT differences
I have a general question about PCT literature/
practice that may generate a little (or no) discussion: of those
on this list that have read Ray Jardine's PCT_Handbook, were any
of you put off by his use of a wrist watch alarm to be certain he
rose each day at 4:30, so that he could be on the trail at 5:15 or
thereabouts? Don't get me wrong--I have a good deal of respect
for his experience, knowledge, and accomplishments (thru hiking
the PCT in 3 months and 3 weeks!?)--but such rigidity seems con-
trary to this slothful hiker's concept of an enjoyable ramble.
Obviously, this is a personal thing and Mr. Jardine would disagree.
I rarely carry a watch when backpacking and never remember really
needing one. Do most thru hikers wake to the heinous sould of an
alarm? Is it a necessity given the daily mileage requirements?
If you want to read a shameless promotion of Ray Jardine's new edtion of the PCT Hikers Handbook, and you have access to the Web check out
http://members.aol.com/AdvenLore/alpweb.htm
It says that the 2nd edition will be out on 1 March, just in time for the class of '96 to read it before they leave. For all of the controversy surrounding Ray Jardine, there are a lot of good ideas in this book, (at least in the 1st edition) if you didn't mind being preached at. The PCTA store should have coppies as soon as they are available.
Thanks for the post ********, about the new edition of the Hikers Handbook. I went to the sight and read what Ray had put there. After reading it I really felt inspired to post this.
Frankly Ray scares me. After reading his book, one will definitely get the feeling that he is a self proclaimed prophet of the PCT, and that if you dont follow him you are "unenlightened". As a former Mormon myself I can pick out cultish, dominating attitudes a mile away. I now strongly feel that the Mormon church is a cult- and is dangerous. In fact I have even served a Mission for the church- A MISSIONARY! Well anyway I strongly feel that Ray has this cultish attitude. He proclaims himself a prophet who will bring in the "new era of long distance backpacking."
Like the Mormons he believes that those who disagree with him are "unelightened" as he says, and he says that they are not real backpackers, but city people who are programed by companies to buy their products. And he is the self proclaimed messiah who will unprogram everyone.
Ray wants everyone to be programed into "the Ray way" as he called it in his page for the new edition. No one needs to follow anyone Ray, especially someone who seems to actively try to gather followers. So like the Mormons he sees the world as black and white, right and wrong, Ray followers and non Ray followers.
Well I guess I should stop for now, but there are alot of other things I could compare- the conspiracy theories he has, the cultish feverish he tries to develop, and so much more.
Let me say that there are many good ideas in the book, many I will use, but the way he seems to actively gather followers and divide the PCT hiking into the "us against them" attitude really bothers me.
Does anyone elts have anything to add? What do you others out there in cyberspace think of Rays techniques?
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 13:37:11 -0500 (EST)
From: ********
Subject: Re: Ray Jardine compared to a cult
>Hikers Handbook (new edition) URL
I too appreciated ********'s post on Ray's new book. I have the first edition and found several things I liked about it:
I was once a Mormon high-priest. I know the feelings of A) being absolutely certain I am right, B) pitying the rest of the world for not acknowledging it, and C) over- whelming relief at being an ex-Mormon. If an idea has merit I am content, now, to let that idea stand or fall on its own merits, without my evangelism. I have no desire to lead anyone else to the truth or to be led there myself. I am an adult and must make my own decisions.
I am grateful to Ray for the price he has paid to develop the advice he offers. I am grateful for the opportunity to accept or reject it as I choose. I did notice that the announcement for his new book was a little short on humility. Having made that observation, I will buy a copy of the new edition. Who knows. Maybe I will learn something.
I read Ray Jardine's guide and found it quite useful...and scary. His advice is often quite sound and backed by his experience, but how many of us have the luxury to spend all their time in the outdoors preparing as he does? As an EMT and a Wilderness Responder for the Red Cross, some of his advice is just scary unless you are thoroughly trained in long distance backpacking. I bless the day that Ray was born for his development of Friends...hey, as a climber his devices have saved my arse...and I admire his sincerity, fervor...etc... but I worry of the non-Olympic backpacker who picks up his book, slaps on some tennies and hits the trail...oh my....
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:43:33 -0800 (PST)
From: ********
Subject: Re: Ray Jardine compared to a cult
When I read Jardine's book for the first time I walked around for a couple days in a daze, trying to fit his worldview to mine. I found his ideas pushed my understanding of backpacking out to the edge. I also realized this guy was very extreme in his approach. I personally think he advanced the frontier of thru-hiking. I'd not read any book since Heidegger's "Being and Time" that made me think as much as the "Hiker's Guide" did. I still pick it up if the weather's bad or I'm feeling depressed. It's better than a Harold Robbins novel. As to his style and maybe his ego - eh, so what??? A previous post pointed out that beginners might suffer if they follow his advice. Hopefully there are enough checks and balances that someone who thinks s/he should pack 50 pounds and wear running shoes cause it's "state of the art" won't be caught with a broken ankle miles from nowhere.
Some climbers I know are no less "crazy" than Jardine seems to be, off in their own world that only they and a select few inhabit. But that doesn't mean I can't appreciate what they've learned or their stories.
I must say though, when I saw some of the things people wrote in the PCT register at Cascade Summit about joining the 30 and 40 mile clubs, and I think one fellow did a 50 miler, I just shake my head. I found myself realizing I was close to being able to do 30 miles in one day, especially in Oregon where it's relatively flat. I didn't have the desire though. No loss for me.
I must admit I did mail order New Balance 580 running shoes from Klamath Falls from Crater Lake Ranger Station and picked them up at Diamond Lake Lodge two days later. The only drawbacks I found was difficulty crossing hard snowbanks and my tendency to space out, step on a one inch high rock or root, begin to turn my ankle, and rather than spraining it, I'd fall.
I had a food drop at Timberline Lodge and was walking down the jeep road from the trail to the Lodge when this happened. There were all sorts of snowboarders and skiiers walking up and down the road to get to the lift which was still running in mid-July. I started to turn my ankle, went down on my right side, rolled over my pack in a sideways summersault, and back up onto my feet. I kept walking like nothing had happened, checking surreptitiously around me to see if I had been observed. AS I turned to my right a maintenance worker in a pick-up drove down and commented how it looked like I did that often. I laughed and said I did, at least once a day.
Another time I went down hard, with a pack with six days of food in it, and lay there in the middle of the trail, in such an awkward position I couldn't readily free myself from my pack. I lay there, arms outstretched, hot, tired, pissed and miserable, wondering just what the hell I thought I was doing.
I also carried an umbrella. I thought that was a great idea. I hate the feeling of rain falling on my head. I don't mind being wet. I just hate the hood and the dripping. Of course it didn't rain and I left it on a day hiker's car just south of Mt. Adams after carrying it the heighth of Oregon.
I guess if there is a cult around his ideas they're welcome to it. It seems to me they'd be just another group of harmless crazies, the Neal Cassidys of the backpacking world...
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:20:06 -0800
From: Brick Robbins
Cc: AdvenLore@aol.com
Subject: Warning about flaming anyone - even Ray Jardine
Dear Listers.
I want to keep this a friendly place, where all feel welcome to express their opinions.
I realize that Ray Jardine and his outspoken views create heated controversy wherever they are discussed, but one of the few rules of this list is NO FLAMING, and THAT INCLUDES RAY!
If you want to discuss his techniques or ideas, please feel free to do so, that is what this list is for, but please DO NOT MAKE DEROGATORY COMMENTS about the man himself. If you feel you must do this, do it to privately and directly to him. His e-mail address is AdvenLore@aol.com
Sigh......I was afraid that this would come up. Will you-all not start the "horse wars" for a while---PLEEEEEZ!
yeah, and don't flame Eric Ryback either...he's my hero!
Date: 24 Feb 96 02:04:12 EST
From: ********
Subject: Re: Warning about flaming anyone - even Ray Jardine
Eric Ryback!? As in The_High_Adventures_of_Eric_Ryback? First person to have claimed to hike from Mexico to Canada on or near the Pacific Crest in, oh, about '71? The PCT Trail Guides have a little blurb about him in the introduction to the trail, which they've whittled down over successive editions. Basically, the authors of the PCT doubted Ryback's claim, and had letters from people who had given him rides (in cars, presumably) around sections of the trail. Eric and his publisher sued the authors of the PCT Guides but dropped the suit when they saw copies of the letters. The authors of the guide credit Ryback's book with focusing attention on the trail, though, and Ryback's accomplish- ment is still respectable given that he was only 18 and the trail wasn't then what it is today. Ryback slipped into relative ob- scurity after his adventure but you still see mention of him from time to time on rec.backcountry. Regards,
Date: 29 Feb 96 19:14:29 EST
From: ********
Subject: Eric Ryback
I'm glad to see that Eric Ryback has not been forgotten. He did hike the AT, PCT, and CDT when it wasn't fashionable to go for the Triple Crown and inspired me in a big way. His hiking and "literary" credentials are:
In my day (having hiked the PCT in 1981, I feel like a grandpa now), he was the guy to flame. Everyone had an opinion about him and it was invariably negative. I didn't participate in the ritual burnings because I looked up to him so much.
At the beginning of each academic year in high school, I would read The High Adventure of Eric Ryback and carry Schaffer's guidebooks (1st edition California and 2nd edition Oregon) with me wherever I went. I even tried to do read one so that I could do a book report on it but found that even well written guidebooks are no fun to read.
After finishing the PCT, I read Ryback's book again and had a good chuckle. I would never accuse him of not hiking the whole thing like Wilderness Press did, but I would say the book is not well written or edited. For example, he says he hiked from Big Bear Lake to Tahquitz Peak in one day. If he was just trying to get the thing written to hit a deadline, I could see a 19-year old making this mistake (especially if it were really Tim Ryback who wrote the book which I have heard asserted). It is the same kind of oversight that shows us a picture of Mount Adams in Southern California.
As for not being able to cover long distances in Washington's snow, I think a lot of people may have said the same thing about Jenny and Ray Jardine, but no one doubts their claims of doing a north to south trip in well under four months. As for taking rides, I hiked every inch of my through hikes, and we could have a huge party with all the people I've hitched rides from. The fact that he and his editors dropped the multimillion dollar suits is not an admission of guilt, it means they couldn't win in court.
In conclusion, I'm not saying he did or didn't hike the whole PCT, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I may be biased, but I'd like to think I can exercise a little objectivity too. I must admit, I did laugh when he stretched his Crater Lake to Bucks Lake drop an extra six days and moaned that to get nourishment he "removed the last two crackers from my pack and then scraped up all the spillage of powder at the bottom of the empty food compartment" even though he crossed I-5 twice and passed at least three grocery stores enroute.
Hey Eric, I still love ya!
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:37:25 -0500
From: ********
Subject: Eric Ryback
I'm on your side - Does it matter whether he did or didn't hike the whole PCT ? He was still doing more than anyone else was at the time. That still makes him a pioneer - and a perfectly good role model.
Personal opinion - he has to live with his hike, we have to be happy with our hikes.
Regardless of what they did or didn't do, I generally cheerfully ignore Ryback-bashing and Jardine-bashing. I don't have time to waste on things like that. I'm too busy trying to get in enough hiking to keep ME happy.
I have been reading the recent and inevitable horse debate and I have a few observations, comments and questions.
First, my hiking qualifications. I don't want to be accused of being "one tenth the hiker you claim to be" as one subscriber flamed while responding to a courteous PRIVATE e-mail. I have through hiked the PCT from the start in Campo to Ashland OR and hiked the length of the John Muir Trail twice. I have also traveled over most of the PCT south of Agua Dulce numerous times on long runs (30+ miles). I was raised on horseback, but I haven't ridden in several years. I am not intimidated by them nor do I have a greater love for horses than for other animals.
OBSERVATIONS: I have hiked through my share of horse s**t on trails, but I have noticed that it is only a problem near the commercial pack outfits in the Sierras, and there are plenty of those. Hiking near Red Meadows, McGee Creek or Leavitt Meadows is like walking through a corral. The only problems I've had with stock on trails involved passing pack trains, either fat tourists on horseback too lazy to walk, or hunters/fishermen being re-supplied by a string of mules. You can also tell when you are getting near a pack station because the condition of the trail changes, due to the heavy traffic wearing steel shoes.
COMMENTS: I don't think non-commercial equestrians detract from hiking on the trail. In fact, I have come across several groups of the Backcountry Horsemen maintaining the trail. I think horsemen probably contribute a bigger share of work back into the trail than hikers do, probably because they are more likely than hikers to belong to groups that do trail work. The individual rider does little, if any damage, and in my experience, is just as friendly as the individual hiker. If you want to reduce the horse s**t on the trails, then try to restrict the commercial pack outfits.
Jardine has led an effort to boycott the PCT Association, because it admits equestrians. Last month the PCTA was accosted by one equestrian because the last newsletter did not mention horses. They are caught in the middle, and take flack from both sides. I think that those of us who love the PCT should work TOGETHER to help the trail. The National Scenic Trails Act of 1968 established the PCT as both a hiking and riding trail. The amount of effort required to change an act of Congress would be enormous, and would be fought tooth and hoof by the commercial pack outfits. Remember, most of the problem areas, were trail used by the pack outfits long before there was a PCT. They have been 'fertilizing' the Sierras for over 100 years.
I think that the trail has more pressing needs than banning horses. There is room for various trail organizations, but I think that any effort to damage one organization because it supports the current legally designated uses of the trail is misguided.
FWIW, in recent correspondence with Jardine, he said that he feels that maintaing trail by clearing brush, and cutting dead falls is "vandalizing Nature." Possibly he would also boycott a trail organization that maintained the trail at all. I also wonder why he hikes trails, instead of just going cross country. His books contain good advice on hiking methods, but some of his other opinions leave me wondering.....
I have mentioned Jardine in this post, because this whole hiker vs. horse debate reminds me of past similar discussions that seemed to have lots of comments starting with "Ray says...." It even occurred to me that MM might not really be an equestrian, but rather an anti-horse hiker who is just trying to make riders look like obnoxious pigs.
QUESTIONS: Why is it that the PCT seems to generate more controversy than other trails like the AT? We have the horse wars. We have Jardine noisily fighting the PCTA. We have MM stirring the pot from the horseback. We even have folks calling Jardine & Co a cult......
Why does it take a fight like this to generate traffic on this list? I didn't fight other hikers on the trail, and I had pleasant conversations with the horse folks I met -- hell one of them even gave me an Ice cold Pepsi! I have worked side by side clearing trail with horse folks, and even folks who would rather do trail work than hike. To quote Rodney King <gdr> "Can't we all just get along?"
I can't stay out of this horse fight any longer. Last year I thru-hiked the PCT and therefore made some observations of hikers and equestrians. I met several equestrians, 2 of which were the nicest, most helpful people I met on the entire trail. I also noticed that equestrians do their fair share of trail maintenance and construction on the PCT. While it is true that horses can do some damage to the trail, I think this damage is negligible when compared to that of the trail's worst enemy- cows. All summer long I heard hikers whining about horses, probably because Jardine has made that fashionable. Nobody ever seems totalk about the damage that cattle do to the trail. I saw 3 cows tear up a section of switchbacks north of Mesa wind farm which probably took some poor trail maintainers weeks of hard labor to complete. Another section of trail north of Lassen National Park had holes almost a foot deep caused by cows slogging through the mud day after day. I can cite more examples of cattle damage but I hope I've already made my point, which is: an equestrian will pass through a section of trail and move on while cattle spend months in one section pounding over the same ground over and over. And I never saw a cattle rancher doing trail maintenance.
I had to sidestep a few piles of horse s**t but I still see equestrians as allies in the fight to preserve the PCT. It needs all the help it can get.
I agree with Rick that many thru-hikers are successful at learning how to hike while they are hiking. The first part of the AT is famous for all the junk that gets left alongside the trail as folks learn what they don't really need.< g>
I would add a minor caution: doing a few week-long trips before you start a thru-hike DOES let you start developing a hiking/camping "system" that fits your personal needs/abilities/desires/style. Sometimes a complete lack of experience keeps you from knowing even what questions should be asked.
One hiker likes tents, another likes tarps. One likes to gourmet cook, another is happy to eat the same thing every day. One likes elaborate town stops, another avoids towns like the plague. Etc., etc. Everybody winds up hiking their own hike in the long run. A lot of the fun of a thru-hike is in learning what "your hike" really is <g>.
1.) Ticks - There's just something about these things. Not to mention
traveling alonem it will be difficult to check my entire body.
Do many people wear long pants along the trip JUST for this
reason?
My son and I never wear long pants unless the flesh is freezing <g>. We wore shorts all thru tick country. You will quickly get into the habit of checking yourself for ticks every time you stop. I don't like to use bug dope any more than I have to.
I am pretty hairy and it takes a tick quite a while to work his way thru all the fuzz (I can usually feel it). We would pick ticks on our legs all day and then do a complete body check each night when we changed from hiking to sleep clothes. I found more than one tick by feeling carefully ALL over my body with my finger tips. I don't recall ever needing any help to find a tick.
We used a fairly simple "tick regimen." We checked our legs and arms each time we sat down to eat (every couple of hours). Crawling ticks were picked and flicked. Each evening we did a complete tick check. Every day or so we would find one that had attached itself. On the theory that it hadn't had time to get fully attached, we simply pulled it out by gently raising it up so that we could grab it with two fingers. Never had a head break off and didn't die from any disease <g>.
2.) Mosquitos - Same here. I have never had an encounter with Mosquitos
and I hope I never do. Wishfull thinking ;-)
We encountered LOTS of mosquitoes in Oregon. LOTS! Used a headnet and a little Ben's. You quickly learn to cope. We didn't use a tent, so we had to mummy up and use a headnet when the mosquitoes were out. Fortunately, the night temps were cool enough to allow us to be comfortable. Would have had to use a net if the nights were too warm to mummy up. Most nights were cool enough that the bugs were gone not long after dark.
BTW, don't let anyone kid you, there ARE blackflies on the PCT! We ran into some up high (about 6-7,000' or so) in either northern Oregon or southern Washington (it was in one of the "checkerboard" areas). We didn't see them at any other locations, thank heaven!
As I start reading the trail guides it seems that water will be a problem in S. California up until Yosemite...
I recall a few other dry stretches <g>. One in Oregon took us by surprise (above Crater Lake). One of the other hikers (Roger Carpenter - he is on the trail as we speak), had done a particularly good job of reading thru the guide books and had figured out where all the dry spells were before he started. My son and I didn't do so hot...we found out about a couple AFTER we had entered into them <grin>.
I am curious to know just how many people us ethe Jardine method of traveling ultra-light. After reading his book I was totally amazed at how light you could make your pack, as well as how cheap it would be. But the thought of making a backpack (that would last), a sleeping bag (that would be warm and durable), and other clothing for the trip seems a stretch too far. Has anyone out there done this?
Ray's book has certainly caused a lot of comment. I have met folks who want to hug his neck and others who want to break it <g>. When I first read his book I had the advantage of having backpacked 2-3 thousand miles. I found his ideas to be very interesting and difinately worth considering. My son and I got about 10 pounds out of each of our packs after thinking about his equipment lists.
I have absolutely no doubt that his ultra-light camping/hiking "system" will work. I have heard of folks (other than Ray and Jenny) who have used Ray's techniques and have done great on the trail. I have also met individuals who had some pretty serious problems with the "Jardine method" (from being uncomfortable to feeling at risk).
Like all things...nothing is free. If you give up equipment, you have to replace it with something else. IMHO, to make Ray's ultra-light system work, you have to replace the gear with outdoor skills and conditioning. Again, IMHO, the folks I met who had trouble with Ray's methods simply either didn't read his book closely enough or didn't know enough to understand what he was saying (particularly about conditioning).
In any case, be SURE to try corn spagetti out BEFORE you buy a big box <VBG>! Nasty stuff... I completely agree that corn is absolutely one of the best energy foods for a thru-hiker...but, grits are MUCH better <g>. Rice ain't too shabby, either.
BTW: I live here in San Diego and would love any information on helping out on trail maintnence as well as hosting/transporting/etc any travelers who are starting the PCT. If anyone can point me to the proper sources, i'd appreciate it.
Run, don't walk, to the PCTA home page and get info on how to join! Good folks...they care about the trail and do a great job of getting people together for all the reasons you mentioned. They ALSO provide invaluable help to the thru-hikers (*** Thanks, Val! ***). Do it now <g>
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 16:43:37 PST
From:********
Subject: Re: PCT-L digest 98
>Subject: Eric RybackMy second question concerns, for the sake of my >traveling companion, bears. We use Garcia >Machine's bear cannisters >for our trips and like the convenience enough to put >up with the additional weight. Has anyone taken a >bear cannister on a long hike or would we get >laughed off the trail? Anyone got any good bear >stories for the section we want to travel?
I'd doubt most people would even know you had a canister if you carry it in your pack. If they do see it and laugh, that's ok. Most people that have seen mine usually say "Good idea". It sure is nice not having to worry about your food being snatched in the middle of the night. In the five years I've had mine I've slept much better in the backcountry.
However, the only times I've had "problems" with bears where in the so-called popular areas of the national parks: once up at Vogelsang in Yosemite and once at Paradise Valley in Kings Canyon. In both cases the bears just batted the can around before going off to look for other victims. And they were successful since many people bear-bag too low to the ground.
I sure don't like having to carry that 3 lbs. around, but I usually take it anyway just for the peace of mind.
For a long trip, I don't think I'd take it; it's too small for much more than five days or so (unless you can live on the expensive dehydrated stuff for that long) and on a long trip every ounce counts. I'd think if you stayed away from the popular camp sites you'd be fine. This is one point were I might actually agree with Jardine. Scary thought.
Date: 01 Jun 96 14:29:32 EDT
From:********
Subject: Bears, Canisters vs Bags
Ever see those exhibits of what a bear can do to a car? IMHO, bears with a will (and people saavy) will find a way to get your food in most instances. I have to agree with Ray Jardine, get off the trail a few hundred yards, especially in those areas with people saavy bears, and you reduce the chances of trouble manyfold. Pack your food in resealable plastic bags (double for the smelly stuf) and hang your stuff bags using the counter balance method and at least 10 ft off the ground. (Ten feet is more than many people think.)
I know that's not always possible, but spend a little time seeking a good limb. A good reason to stop while there's still some daylight. Have your soup, regain your strength, and pitch that line high enough to do the trick. The only time I ever had any trouble - and it was in Yosemite's northeast corner where the NPS relocates the trouble bears from populated areas - was when I didn't follow this advice.
Good luck, and be sure to report any bear problems to the PCTA office (888) PCTRAIL and local authorities.
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:46:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: ********
Subject: Re: Cindy Ross' Book
>This brings up a question I have been >pondering. While reading through the >Oregon/Washington PCT Trail Guide, in >the intro they reccomend that you do not >attempt the full trip in one season, due to >numerous reasons, one of them being that >the body is not meant to carry a heavy load >for extended periods of time. Secondly, they >mention that as most of us would walk 15-20 >miles a day, we would not have the time to >take in the beautiful scenery. Any comments >on this?
For me there was no question that I was doing a one season thru hike. It was my personal goal. You have to really want to do a thru hike in order to complete it in one season. Not something to be approached casually. If you don't really want to do a thru hike, then segments is the way to go. One should hike the PCT according to his/her own wishes, not what other's think or write.
There were times along the way when I wished I could spend a little longer in one location, but many of those I have gone back to since for extended hikes. I liked the overview the thru hike gives one of the spine of the mountains.
I did not find that carrying a pack was bad, though I did not really care for the first couple of days on a 12 day carry. I found that not hiking with a pack was worse on me. Without the adrenline of the daily hike, I would get very jittery. My body craved the physical side of the hike. Rest days decreased dramatically as the hike progressed.
I never found that I wasn't able to take in the beautiful scenery. By the time I reached Oregon and Washington, 20 miles were short days and I had plenty of time to soak up the scenery along the way. I would spend a couple of hours at places that were particularly nice. I spent an afternoon at Jefferson Park, imagining I was totally alone. Didn't see anyone until I shouldered the pack and started out. Then it was like a great rift had torn open, people spilling forth.
Many people tend to hike with their eyes on the ground. Keep you eyes up, letting your feet feel their way and you will see scenery that is unparallelled.
>In the guide, they discuss different starting >dates for a successful hike. I was under the >impression that a south to north trip should >be started in early April? But the guide says >you should not pass into Oregon until early >August. Now, with CA taking about a month, >that means I would have to start in July! Also, >they mention a few different patterns of >avoiding the swarms of mosquitos by starting >at certain times in regon. Does anyone care >to go over a typical starting date for, let's say, >a 5 month hike.
Starting dates vary. I would have to say that it depends somewhat on the hiking condition you are in. April 1st is the traditional starting date, but if you are in great shape and can handle 20 mile days from the get go then a later date will allow you to hit the snow a little later. For a five month hike you could conceivably start on May 1 and still be done by the end of September. Of course a later date also means HOT weather in southern California.
it would seem to me that one month for California is a little short unless you are planning on 55 mile days continuously. It took me about 4 months to do California and then a single month each for Oregon and Washington. I took more rest days at the beginning of the hike than I did toward the end. I took five days off when I reached Tahoe to visit with friends. But I was chomping at the bit to get back out on the trail after a couple of days.
If you don't have time restrictions of your own, I would suggest an early April start. It will allow you more flexibility about the length of time you can spend in various locations.
>Lastly, regarding Jardine's book, >has anyone hiked part (or all) of the >PCT in walking shoes as he mentions >or is it just a no no?
I have done the JMT in tennis shoes. It depends somewhat on how strong your ankles are, whether you are used to the rigors of trail life, etc. Personally I like a heavier boot because I am tough on boots. I tend to wear out tennis shoes after only 200 miles or so on the trail, where as I can make a leather boot last about 2,500 miles.
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:11:17 -0700
From: ********
Subject: Re: Cindy Ross' Book
>This brings up a question I have >been pondering. While reading through >the Oregon/Washington PCT Trail Guide, >in the intro they reccomend that you do >not attempt the full trip in one season, >due to numerous reasons, one of them >being that the body is not meant to >carry a heavy load for extended periods >of time. Secondly, they mention that as > most of us would walk 15-20 miles a >day, we would not have the time to take >in the beautiful scenery. > >In the guide, they discuss different >starting dates for a successful hike. I >was under the impression that a south >to north trip should be started in early >April? But the guide says you should not >pass into Oregon until early August. Now, >with CA taking about a month, that means >I would have to start in July! >Lastly, regarding Jardine's book, has >anyone hiked part (or all) of the PCT in >walking shoes as he mentions or is it just a >no no?
Jeff Schaffer walked ALL of his parts of the PCT guides as day hikes, which was very efficient for his mapping project. In fact, he rarely does ANY overnight hiking. So his perspective is skewed. He is also a guy who has always been troubled by joint problems, so he prefers to carry little weight. Put Yvonne Chouinard in the same category. Neither of them, despite their assertions that carrying a pack is bad for you, have any science to back up their claims. Carrying a pack, overnight for 5 months, is definitely the BETTER way to see the PCT.
The statement, again often made by Jeff Schaffer (a close personal friend, by the way), that you "can't see anything" if you hike the PCT at 15-20 miles a day, is pure bullshit. He did it that way, and saw a lot. So did I; so did everyone else. If you care about looking, you will see. I meet dozens of people along the trail, every year, who don't see anything, even though they only walk a few miles.
California doesn't take a month - try three. Start near the end of April, at Mexico. May, June, July for California, Oregon in August, Washington in September before too much snow flies.
People have done the PCT in EVERY kind of shoes - heavy mountaineering boots, lite hikers, Teva sandals, tennis shoes - pick your pain.
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 10:31:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: ********
Subject: Re: Cindy Ross' Book
> >Lastly, regarding Jardine's book, >has anyone hiked part (or all) of the PCT in >walking shoes as he mentions or is it >just a no no?
Coverse Chuck Taylor Hi-Tops and $20.00 Coleman "Hiking" Boots. My "regular" hiking boots spent most of the time in my pack!
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:21:25 -0800
From:********
Subject: Re: Cindy Ross' Book
[snip -editor]
> >This brings up a question I have >been pondering. While reading through the >Oregon/Washington PCT Trail Guide, > in the intro they reccomend that you >do not attempt the full trip in one >season, due to numerous reasons, one >of them being that the body is not >meant to carry a heavy load for extended >periods of time.
I don't know if the body is bio-mechanically suited to carrying heavy loads for long distances, but 3 people have written why they left the PCT after more than 500 miles, and all were driven from the trail by physical injuries brought on by hiking itself. The injuries were a back, knee, and foot problem, respectively.
I don't recall now whether the writers mentioned the details, such as pack weight or whether the hikers in question knew they might be prone to these injuries before starting the hike. But, I think from their accounts they were unaware they might be susceptible. Each did mention that they left the trail on advice from their doctor that the injuries would become permanent if they didn't stop immediately. It was also clear they did not leave the PCT willingly.
Of course, anecdotal evidence does not make a statement generally true. I wish more people who quit the trail would be willing to share their reasons .
On another tack, I have read numerous trip reports of those who successfully thru-hiked either the AT or PCT, and a surprising number of them report having to take off significant amounts of time (5+ days) to let some walking-caused injury heal. I think its reasonable to assume pack weight had some bearing in their injuries, but without more information its impossible to draw any conclusions.
>Secondly, they mention that as >most of us would walk 15-20 >miles a day, we would not have >the time to take in the beautiful scenery. >Any comments on this?
This doesn't make sense to me. I find even my fastest hiking pace allows plenty of time to take in the views. Now, if by *time* the authors meant time to fish, or time to collect rocks, or time to bird-watch, etc. then I would agree with the assertion. Thru-hiking doesn't allow a lot of dilly-dallying.
>In the guide, they discuss different >starting dates for a successful hike. I >was under the impression that a south >to north trip should be started in early >April? But the guide says you should >not pass into Oregon until early August. >Now, with CA taking about a month, >that means I would have to start in July! >Also, they mention a few different p >atterns of avoiding the swarms of mosquitos >by starting at certain times in Oregon. >Does anyone care to go over a typical >starting date for, let's say, a 5 month hike.
I think *sometime in April* is about as good an answer as anyone can provide, since the amount of rainfall varies so much. The goal of desert hiking is to time everything perfectly so that snow-hiking is minimal, all the creeks are flowing, and all the flowers are in bloom. That is, the best starting date is one that takes all these variables into account for any given year.
In most years of normal or greater rainfall, an early April start is too early, IMO, because there is too much snow and not enough flowers. Also, most years Mother Nature blasts SoCal with a week or so of fare-thee-well storms in early May. These tend to hit hardest 100 miles or so north of Campo. For those reasons I personally would recommend starting some time after Easter. However, in a drought year(s), such as when the guidebook was revised, then an early April start is fine.
>Lastly, regarding Jardine's book, >has anyone hiked part >(or all) of the PCT in >walking shoes as he >mentions or is it just a no no?
A number of people have, including some on this list. BUT, its critical to understand how hiking in running shoes is part of an ultra-light hiking style. Ie, it starts with being fit, and carrying a very lightweight pack. To get the lightweight pack means hiking during optimal conditions, so snow gear and clothing can be left behind, and having enough experience to deal with emergencies without a specific tool. It also means you must be able to cover big mile days (22+) to hike between water sources with a safety margin in case they're dry. Also, note that even Jardine recommends lightweight boots for the snowfields in the Sierra.
While I personally wouldn't try it, if it works for you then that's great.
All the above comments are just my .02 cents.
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:27:00 -0800 (YDT)
From: ********
Subject: RE: request help for PCT planning pages
<snip -editor>
There are a lot of things I really like about the Jardine book, and a few minor things that I would dispute. I would love to hike the trail again, this time with a much lighter pack and greater mileage (I have hiked as much as 70 miles in a day, so though my body has picked up a few problems with age, my endurance is much higher than it was 20 years ago) pretty much as recommended in the book. My only misgiving about this is that as hard as the High Sierra was the way I did it (in the snow which Jardine recommends against), it was more than worth it, if not for the psychological power it gives you then for the solitude: we saw less than a dozen other people on that stretch and 2 of them were other thru-hikers who joined us. I would also love to go back and ski the High Sierra section. I only regret that I snowshoed it instead of skiing like one of my fellow thru-hikers did, even if I did not have the skill then to do it. A few years later, I made up for it by skiing the Iditarod Trail here in Alaska. On that trip, we were able to use sleds to haul a months worth of food and fuel, which allowed us freedom to go at a pace we chose day to day, allowing for stuff like unexpected rest days during snowstorms and visits with people in the bush who would invite us in for meals and a warm cabin to sleep in. One of the funner trips I've gone on was a month canoeing on the Yukon River, a trip I had already done at a faster pace of 2 1/2 weeks: we had plenty of time for reading, exploring, playing games, fishing, sunbathing, swimming...I think you get the idea. Pace is a function of what you want from your trip: for some folks, a 4 month hike of the PCT will be the trip of a lifetime, for others, a multi-year section hike of the trail will be best. Don't be afraid to adjust your trip either: I once went on a few thousand mile bike trip which I started out going too fast and pushing too hard until I was losing touch with what the trip was supposed to be, and finally slowed it down before I had a total mental breakdown; only then did I really start to "see" and really enjoy the trip. I should mention that the bicycle trip came after all these other trips (and many others) and I should have known better but, of course, being just a human, I ignored all my previous experience and intuition. There is something to be said for being new to the game, full of excitement and innocent of mind...
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:33:44 -0700
From: ********
Subject: RE: Hiking in running shoes
Last summer I had an experience hiking the PCT from Manning Park to Stehekin in tennis shoes. I had a case of brain lock and left my boots at home. I had read Jardines book, but had not intended to test his tennis shoe theory. If I had not read his book and done some of his ankle exercises, we probably would have killed a day getting into town to buy some boots before setting off a day late. Fortunately we were hiking in September and encountered no snow. Me turned ankles but lots of sore feet. There we really sore after the 1st day, and bother me most of the next 3 days, but by day 5 were only sore in the morning or after a long break. I did not get over the morning soreness until about 3 weeks after the trip. I never had problems turning an ankle, but never felt real comfortable on rocks or rough trail either. In the future, I would consider wearing tennis shoes on nice forested stretches of the trail, but will never forget my boots at home again.
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 13:53:55 -0800 (YDT)
From:********
Subject: Re: Hiking in running shoes/Ice axes
Now that the running shoes discussion has settled down a bit, I will offer my two cents. I offer this as my experience only, not as a recommendation for or against running shoes.
The most important thing to keep in mind when quoting from the Jardine book is that Ray is not like the rest of us: he is an execellant athlete, at one time during the mid to late 70's, he was if not the best rock climber in the world for pure difficulty, then one of the best, Olympic quality in caliper. Also, he was an aerospace engineer, and engineers are always trying to improve on the status quo of technique and technology. When Ray recommends hiking the PCT in running shoes, he is speaking of his own (and his wife's) experience. Now, I am way below Ray on the experience scale, but being a climber also and therefore somewhat of an athlete (I cringe at the thought), I have also found running shoes to be an excellant to hike in, both on trail and off, in the right situation. Most of the hiking I do here in Alaska is off-trail (there are only a small handful of trails that go anywhere here: we badly need a network of long trails, but that is a different issue) and I usually use running shoes when scrambling in the mountains or on the approach hike to a big climb (mountaineering boots in the pack). For instance, I have hiked from Wonder Lake the 20 some rough miles (some trail) into the Muldrow Glacier across the huge McKinley River, bogs and tundra in running shoes while carrying a 60 pound pack loaded with climbing gear and 10-days food/fuel. I am not a big strong guy, just a 145 lb., 5'10" normal-type weekend warrior, and usually I do not suffer for using such lightweight footwear (if there is a lot of scrambling, my ankles do tire so I would probably use my light leather hiking boots. I have also done a fair amount of technical rock and snow climbing in my running shoes, and found them fair to poor for such use; very hard snow and ice is a different thing, best left to ice gear, but with the use of an ice axe, short passages are possible (this is NOT a recommendation). As always, the skill of the person in the situation is the critical factor. The quest for lightness is a personal matter.
If I were to hike the PCT again, I would like to try the running shoe approach. On my thru-hike, I used a pair of Fabiano boots that lasted from Mexico to the Columbia River and which point I hitched to Portland and bought another pair. These were about 5 to 5 1/2 lbs. a pair and I would NOT go that route again, despite their comfort and durability. I had no experience in real snow country when I headed into the High Sierra and I am glad to have used such good boots then. I had an ice axe (more on this later) and crampons. The crampons were used on only 2 passes, for ascent in the early morning, not for descent from the passes as the snow was soft enough to glissade. The ice axe was invaluble, the crampons were an excellant help but probably not necessary. There are a lot of places beyond the High Sierra all the way to Canada, where snowfields must be crossed, and as the summer goes along, the snowpack gets harder and icier as a general rule before it disappears: what this means is that you must be prepared for occasional such hazards, physically and psychologically, and you must decide what you can handle and what equipment will serve you well. For most people, that will be boots and ice axe. Personally, I know I could get by without either, but I am a very experienced extreme ice climber. Even then, I would be very leery for my safety and you can bet that I would be tiptoeing and praying while in the middle of a steep and icy snowfield with just my running shoes and stupid ego for company.
As someone else stated, the advantage of leather boots, even light ones, is that you can kick a step in everything but the hardest snow, though without an ice axe, you still might freeze up in mortal fear. An ice axe will allow you to cut a step, which is a rather time-consuming operation, as well as offer a good third leg (I cannot count the number of times through the years where that third leg saved my butt) by planting it in the snow on your uphill side before committing to that step (kicked or cut). My hiking buddy here (who hikes and scrambles in the local mountains more than anyone I know) is an ultralight freak so if he knows he might cross a snowfield, he carries in addition to an ice ace, a pair of lightweight ice creepers, which some outdoor stores sell. These are those things that normal city folks use on their rubber boots under the arch that have 4 or more points to them. I have not tried this since I have always gotten through with just an ice axe.
Please remember too that Ray and Jennie did not try the running shoe technique on their first thru-hike of the PCT. They developed the technique after they had the initial experience, as I have, and it was just a part of an overall system of lightweight hiking. I guess the lesson here is go safely first then tighten up the belt a little at a time.
Now, about that ice axe. I carried mine from Mexico to Canada as a walking staff and it was one of the few pieces of gear that went all the way. Of course, I looked like a damned fool out there in the desert but it was quite handy on the high desert peaks that you have to cross. The type of ice axe you want is a general mountaineering axe. It will have a straight shaft long enough to be a comfortable walking staff (your hand will rest lightly on the top with your arm hanging down), will be just one-piece construction in the tool part at the top (no detachable tools which are meant for extreme ice climbing) and will be of all-metal with a paint or rubber coating on the shaft. I recommend all-metal because it will stand up to the abuse much better than the carbon-fiber (or other synthetic) shafts which again are more for the technical ice climber. It will probably not come with a leash, which is a 50/50 proposition at best, good in case you have butterfingers, bad in case you take a bad tumbling fall and are being repeatedly poked by the pick (ice climbers are fond of pointing out that the Russian revolutionary Trotsky was murdered with an ice axe). Though I could explain the technique involved in using an ice axe to cross a snowfield, you are much better off reading the book "Mountaineering: the freedom of the hills" from the Seattle Mountaineers, which has all sorts of good illustrations, plus do's and don'ts. If you feel unsure after that, then seek out instruction with a certified guide or class. I have never taken any class for any climbing or other outdoor activity, so it is possible to work your way up from rank beginner to so-called expert, just count on a long bumpy road to that point. Again, if you feel unsure, seek out a professional, swallow your pride and do the right thing. Some of you out there will never get past that snowfield and it will be the end of the trip for you (refer to the already much-discussed Cindy Ross book for one such account and how she came back and overcame that fear to finish up the trail) while some of you will be tomorrow's extreme ice climbers: to everything, there is a season...
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:27:36 -0700
From: ****
Subject: Re: Corn Spagetti?
At 03:11 PM 7/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >What are your thoughts on Corn >Spagetti as the long distance hiker's wonder >food? >Is it as good as , Jardine says it is? >If so, where can I get it, since >the local supermarket manager looks at me >funny when I ask him about it, >since he doesn't think such a thing exists? >Has anybody (besides RJ) ever >lived off it as the main constituent of their >diet?
I have yet to find this stuff also and have tried many types of stores including health, supoermarkets, Trader Joes, etc. There was discussion earlier on this list that suggested that it wasn't that tasty, though Jardine admits that too.
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:24:20 -0600
From: ********
Subject: Re: Corn Spagetti
My son and I tried corn spaghetti when we were preparing for our thru-hike last year. We had discovered from previous hiking (AT, etc.) that we fully agree with Ray Jardine about the value of corn on a distance hike. We found some corn spaghetti in small boxes at our local health food store.
We carry dehydrated cooked meat, dehydrated cooked veggies and basic "carbo's" (potatoes, corn, wheat, and rice) in bulk bags...we like to mix and match different combinations as we go. We spent a couple of months cooking and dehydrating some 350 meals worth before we started our PCT hike.
We cooked meat (chicken and catfish), dehydrated it, and then vacuum bagged it one cup at a time. We cooked various veggies (frozen: English peas, green beans, lima beans, stir fry mix, broccoli, etc.; and dried: pinto beans, kidney beans, black beans, butter beans, etc.), dehydrated them, and then bagged them in plastic food storage bags (one cup at a time). Everything got tossed into the freezer and my wife would pack some into a resupply box every week or two and mail it to us.
We had used noodles, dehydrated hashbrowns, rice (Uncle Ben's Converted Brown), and grits (regular, not instant) on the AT. A typical evening meal would be made out of one meat, one veggie, and one "carbo"...the particular combination would be decided on the fly (depending on our mood, the weather, what was left, etc.). We decided to try corn spaghetti as a possible addition to the four carbo choices.
We cook one-pot meals by getting a pot of creek water, tossing in the food (dehydrated meat, dehydrated veggie, and carbo), and seasoning to taste (dehydrated salsa, garlic or onion powder, lots of salt, red pepper, etc.). The pot goes on the stove and is brought to a boil for a minute or two. We then take the pot off (covered) and wrap it in a sleeping bag until we are ready to eat. Sometimes we like to add chopped white cheese when we take the pot off the stove. We later do soapless cleanup and boil some coffee/tea water.
We never could get corn spaghetti to work worth a hoot. Nasty stuff...it didn't taste particularly good and it tended to disintegrate the way that we like to cook. We find that grits have good energy, cook up just fine, and taste a WHOLE lot better!
In fact, by the last months of the PCT thru-hike we had given up on even
the dehydrated hashbrowns and wheat noodles (spaghetti, elbow macaroni,
etc.) because they didn't seem to have the energy content that the rice and
grits had. We would probably have been quite happy eating grits four meals
out of five...but, we didn't argue with whatever my wife mailed to us
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 20:13:46 -0400
I have found "Westbrau Natural" quite good and almost indistinguishable from
wheat pasta. They are located in
Carson, Ca., 310-886-8200 is the number on the box.
Ray Jardine is crazy about the stuff. Corn Pasta is a nice change from wheat
pasta, otherwise carbs are carbs.
Corn meal "mush" is easy to cook and and makes a great
breakfast too.
From: ********
Subject: Re: PCT-L digest 146